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In reply to: Scrapping Honorary Membership !
The complexity of administration that Andy alludes to is very much the point here, and very much in the thinking of the Working Group that recommended this package of changes, and also in the considerations of the Trustees and Council, who have discussed this several times in the last year. The income aspect is quite significant, as this is around 10% of the membership that is paying no subs, but also what needs to be considered is paying for the staff time to administer a complex system. That’s primarily what we are trying to grapple with. Also very apparent, as Andy mentioned, is the lack of volunteers, that means paid staff must do ever more tasks to run the Association.
Some have asked that we honour 50 discontinuous years of membership rather than only 50 continuous years. I cannot imagine how that could possibly work. Membership data over the years has been held on several different systems, manual and computerised. The current on-line database only goes back a few years. People who have lapsed then rejoined probably have multiple membership numbers. Marrying this information up, where people change numbers, addresses and even names, to prove whether someone has or has not subscribed to the BAA discontinuously for 50 years, would be an administrative nightmare. Maintaining the system we have is bad enough!
Though I can see how people who expected to reach honorary status soon might feel a bit disappointed, I must say I struggle to understand some of the solutions that have been proposed here. ‘Honorary’ means unpaid, free. That’s what the word means, and what we are considering here: whether or not to continue to give free membership to those who achieve 50 years continuous membership. Abolishing the honorary membership does not mean not honouring those members who reach this milestone, whether it be by publishing their names in the Journal, congratulating them in a meeting, or giving them a certificate or a badge (though I’m not sure if the cocoa thing was a joke or not).
I hope plenty of people come to the SGM in January. Last January only between 30 and 40 people attended the meeting, as I recall, about half of those, Council members. Not all Council members attend the London meetings, as some are in remote corners of the UK, but they can still participate and vote in Council meetings by Zoom. However, ordinary members cannot vote in a meeting remotely, they have to be present. This raises the possibility in my mind that a vote in Council could be overturned in the SGM by a smaller and less representative selection of the membership than voted in Council. This would be very unsatisfactory. But if plenty of people turn up to the SGM, there is no such issue.
In reply to: End of Schools’ eligibility to be Member Societies.
The plan is for the BAA to continue to have Affiliated Societies. However, they would not be a paid type of membership that receives the Journal.
Depending on how this is handled, this could open up Affiliated Societies status to more societies.
On a related topic, the BAA also has a library category of membership. Unless an individual joins to share the Journal, this might be a way to separate Affiliated Society status from paid membership while giving a route to receive the Journal.
In reply to: Scrapping Honorary Membership !
I, too, am not far off my 50th anniversary. Whilst it might have been nice to have a free membership, it does seem odd in this day and age that I should pay nothing, yet people just joining would pay the full rate. It seems neither fair nor necessary. This is especially the case considering the financial deficit that the Association has been running for many years (fortunately counteracted by the benevolence of former members who have left legacies).
The BAA has been a central and constant theme of my life. I’d like to think that if you cut me in half you would read the Association’s name running though me like a stick of rock. That for me is the honour.
I actually applied for membership at Christmas 1973 (where did those 50 years go?) and was elected in early 1974. However, I was an impecunious schoolboy so had to drop out for a couple of years, rejoining in 1978. So that is when my continuous membership starts. We should indeed be making it more affordable for young people to join. In fact I wrote to the President at the time to suggestion a lower rate for young people, but it was many years before it came to pass. Which is why I proposed a motion at the 2023 SGM, seconded by Nick James, not to increase the young person’s membership rate (as reported in the current Journal).
By all means bring the motion to continue Honorary Memberships – and thanks for starting such an engaging debate – but I won’t be supporting it. But I would support Gary’s proposal for free Horlicks at meetings!
In reply to: Scrapping Honorary Membership !
I am following the debate with interest and I can see both sides. (I joined in 1969 and so am now four years into my honorary membership.) As an honorary member and being overseas I gladly contribute 21 pounds per annum to continue to have a paper copies of publications mailed to me – but these mailings are out of pocket expenses for the BAA and do not contribute to the general running expenses.
Many years ago members could purchase a life membership by an upfront payment but this was discontinued because it became simply a wager as to how long you would last.
My feelings on attaining my 50 years standing was one of achievement, rather like my 65 years involvement with local clubs, my near 50 years observing and timing lunar occultations, and when I finally built it, my 44 year old observatory. I am still active and contribute to two sections of the BAA, one of them intermittently since the late 60’s/early 70’s. Now age 81, I certainly agree that with some luck and good management, retired people have the money to easily afford the membership fee and much more, but that is not the point. It is simply the recognition. Even your motoring clubs like RAC (here anyway) give out gold memberships after 50 years. (You just have to live long enough!)
To sum up, I feel it would be reasonable to honour this class of 50 year plus members, and even reward their loyalty by a reduction in membership fee – I think half fee was suggested, and this should cover the obvious administration expenses – and I am happy to also pay any extra postage as I presently do. Clearly we must cut our cloth to fit the current circumstances and I believe that with the internet, the residual effects of the Covid pandemic, and the the ready availability of you tube and zoom meetings, we have largely lost the comradarie that we once had when we could only reasonably pursue our interests by joining a club, attending meetings to listen and make friends, and borrow books from their library.
Our local club, much like the BAA is shrinking and only half the size it was in the early space age, composed of an ageing membership (very few under 50 years old), with key individuals engaged in their own narrow fields of interest as I am. Having some mobility problems myself I have attended meetings by zoom only in recent years.
I can’t see that it will be getting any better. Same goes for the club instruments available for loan – no-one seems interested any more. Instant gratification by the internet is so quick and easy.
Even my wife of 56 years is not helping. When in a moment of candour (maybe being a bit pompous), I said to her that I would like to leave something behind in the field – she said ‘You mean like a cow?’ I was puzzled until she added “Well it leaves something behind in the field too.’
So I think we should rely on BAA council to come up with a solution to honour our long standing members but not have the shifting demographics place an unfair burden on the rest of the association. As for obtaining new and younger members might I suggest an earlier British tradition called ‘Press Ganging’?In reply to: Scrapping Honorary Membership !
Concerning the ageing demographics, I note that this problem is not exclusive to the BAA or to astronomical societies, but it is visible in most membership societies operating on traditional models, across all activities and hobbies. The young generation is much less interested in joining societies than the immediate post-war generations were. They get their information and social interactions in different ways.
We have a Diversity Working Group which is looking at the whole issue of what the BAA should do to broaden its appeal – not just to young people, but (the bigger issue really) to women, and to minorities. It will report to Council shortly, and hopefully some suggestions will get taken forward and do some good.
Young persons’ membership rates are already less than half the full rates, and I’m not convinced offering free memberships would get us more participation from young people.
However we remain a democratic organisation, and if someone wished to propose (and someone else second) such a proposal at the SGM, it would be voted on, and the Trustees and Council would be bound by the result. Similarly, someone could propose that we continue to give the free membership to those with 50 years’ continuous membership, and, if the meeting so voted, we would.
David Arditti
PresidentIn reply to: Scrapping Honorary Membership !
I and a number of my contemporaries joined the BAA in our teenage years or our 20s, then as impoverished students our memberships lapsed until when in our 30s or later we had more spare time for our hobby and could afford the annual subscription. None of us are eligible for Honorary Membership and I guess that 50 continuous years will become a rarity.
Proposals to support younger members – and retain them – are welcomed.
Alex.
In reply to: Scrapping Honorary Membership !
I am some way off the ‘bus pass’ membership though it is a small future incentive when I have looked at options for my membership.
I’m not a member of a local society but many BAA members are. What strategies do they use for increasing younger/active participation?
The joining page doesn’t list 26 categories and I’m surprised there are so many. I propose maybe three payment rates even if many categories.
Why not let the ‘benefactor’ membership bed in for a year or so before making even more changes?In reply to: Scrapping Honorary Membership !
Being only two years away from my 50 year membership of the BAA I am left feeling a little deflated by this anouncement of the scrapping of honorary membership by the Trustees. It is not the subscription money that I would have saved if my membership became honorary and therefore free, but it will be the lost feeling of pride and achievement that missing out on the award of an honorary membership by the Association that I have been proud to have belonged to for most of my adult life. Also I look back at the list of previous honorary members and I would have felt an extra pride that I would have joined their ranks. The sending of a certificate will not engender that same feeling of pride. I will not stop being a member of the BAA, my intention is to remain a member for the rest of my life. Now I suppose, looking forward, my main achievement may be to have an obituary published in the JBAA! I have been an active member of the BAA for almost 50 years and have participated in most of the BAA’S activities and contributed to its publications over those years. I was not asked about this decision before it was made,perhaps a rethink my be appropriate before it is sanctioned and ratified. Perhaps it is right that we recognise members who have been supportive of the BAA for so long. We are not a Association who are bereft of funds, both currently and going forward so why can’t we honour our long standing members in this way. I would be happy to send my membership fee to the BAA as a benefactor after being awarded an honorary membership.It is the recognition, by the Association, of long participation and continuous membership that is important to me not the free membership.
Denis BuczynskiIn reply to: New membership categories
I’ll try to answer this.
We are proposing removing affiliated societies as a category of membership. Thereafter they will not pay anything to the BAA, and will not receive the publications. However, we anticipate that many societies will still wish to be affiliated because they wish to be associated with the name of the BAA, and will view it as a mark of their standing or credibility. Council would only approve the affiliation of properly-constituted societies.
The members of affiliated societies would still be welcome at BAA meetings. For meetings where there is a ticket fee, it is possible we could continue to offer lower prices to affiliated society members than to the general public, but that will be decided on a case-by-case basis. We’d be free to offer other benefits to them not yet decided. I hope we would give affiliated societies publicity on our website and in the Journal. I think Section Directors would still be happy to give advice to members of affiliated societies (though speaking as Director of the E&T Section, it is my policy to give more time to people whom I know have subscribed to the BAA individually).
What Bill says about the Journal distributed through a local society is interesting. Most societies I know have abandoned maintaining a lending library, and, if affiliated, they don’t really know what to do with the Journal and Handbook, they are typically just kept by the Secretary. It would of course be possible for an official of the society to join in his or her own name, get refunded by the society, and donate the publications to the society – which is the same as happens now, but using different words.
David Arditti
PresidentTopic: M31N 2008-12a call to arms.
It is that time of year again. A recurrent nova in M31 is due to go off again. This one has by far the shortest recurrence period known at about 1 year. I have been looking out for it for quite a while but it has never shown up when I am in La Palma. If you subscribe to 12a_Monitoring@googlegroups.com you will have seen the material below. If not, and you can image down to mag 18 or so in a reasonable time (meaning you have a 20cm telescope or larger) please consider subscribing. My http://www.astropalma.com/Projects/VS/M31N_2008-12a.html provides more information and a link to a finder chart.
Thanks, Paul
Dear colleagues,Another year ticked off (almost)! As always, I hope you are all keeping well at this time!
Traditionally, this is an e-mail I’ve send around the start of September – this year, I am purposely sending it later as we are working toward a smaller potential eruption window. I know many of you have already been observing 12a regularly – so thanks for that!
This email is to let you all know that, yet again, we have officially restarted our ground-based optical monitoring of the remarkable M31 recurrent nova M31N 2008-12a with the aim to detect the 2023 eruption. As always, I want to extend our thanks to those of you who have already been observing over the last weeks and I want to encourage everyone to join the monitoring effort once again.
We have again secured several very early time spectroscopic observations of the 2023 eruption that require early notification of the 2023 eruption for triggering. This again includes time on the Liverpool Telescope. Our aim with these follow-up observations remains to probe the early-time physics that drive the eruption and an attempt to definitively determine the ultimate fate of M31N 2008-12a – whether one day it will explode as a Type Ia supernova or collapse to a neutron star. Your continued involvement in this project is key to all these aims! Each year we manage to get on target faster and faster, we are hoping that the heavens (and weather) align this year to start our follow-up observations within an hour of the eruption occurring – it’s ambitious, but in theory we can do it!
Last year, although we had an early detection of the eruption of 12a (https://www.astronomerstelegram.org/?read=15786) and rapid spectroscopic follow-up (https://www.astronomerstelegram.org/?read=15788), unfortunately, the geography at the time of eruption meant that we discovered the event just too late to meet the early spectroscopic goals. The LT is setup to automatically trigger spectroscopic observations of 12a as soon as we receive a report of an eruption – stopping any on-going observations at the time, we have ‘ultimate priority’ for these observations! Indeed, we have automated the whole process should the LT be the first telescope to detect the 2023 eruption!
As in previous years, below I outline in detail the monitoring and reporting structure, as well as the notifications in case of a discovery. This strategy is the same as recent years. Please follow the precise instructions because, for instance, some of us have set up email alerts based on the email subject of the discovery notification.
In previous years, the Liverpool Telescope has been a regular source of additional eruption monitoring observations but has only been the first telescope to detect three of the fifteen consecutive eruptions (2014, 2018, and 2020). Out of interest, of those 15 eruptions 8 have been detected by members of this group (the other 7 by facilities such as PTF, LT, and LCO)!
We will still be using the mailing list 12a_Monitoring@googlegroups.com for the communication within the collaboration. The finding chart and reference stars remain the same as for the previous eruption. If you have any questions don’t hesitate to contact me at M.J.Darnley@ljmu.ac.uk and I will provide clarification. Please note that the “12a” mailing list is reserved for discussions about this nova.
I hope that all of you will join again for another exciting season of watching the most remarkable nova go into eruption. Please let me know in case you will not be able to participate in this year’s campaign.
Best regards and clear skies,
Matt for the 12a Collaboration
1) The eruption date prediction
Based on an updated analysis, we expect the 2023 eruption of 12a will take place in December 2023, with the window possibly extending into early January 2024.
2) Who is coordinating
Mike Healy (M.W.Healy@ljmu.ac.uk) and I (M.J.Darnley@ljmu.ac.uk) will be coordinating the observations, but also involved and very interested will be: Allen Shafter (awshafter@gmail.com).
3) Communication strategy
For the communication within the collaboration we will use exclusively the mailing list 12a_Monitoring@googlegroups.com. The usage of the list should be restricted to notifications of (potential) discoveries, status updates from the coordinators, requests for confirmation, and urgent queries. This will reduce the email traffic for all of us. In case of non-urgent/minor questions or updates please contact me (M.J.Darnley@ljmu.ac.uk) directly.
4) Where to report upper limits and photometry?
We encourage all of you to report your upper limits to the AAVSO database, whether you are an AAVSO member or not. We have established the AAVSO database as central data collection hub for this project. We will be checking your reported upper limits frequently. Here is information on how to submit data to the AAVSO, courtesy of (former) AAVSO director Stella Kafka:
Information on how to get an AAVSO observer code and submit your data directly to the AAVSO database: To do so, you need to create an account here: https://www.aavso.org/join-aavso(under “Click Here to Join the AAVSO”).
Once you register, please request an observer code.
Please note that you don’t need to be members to get an observer code and submit data (although it would be great if everyone becomes an AAVSO member and supports the association). Observer codes are unique and help us give credit to observers who acquire observations and diagnose problems with discrepant data when needed.
In case of further questions about the AAVSO data base please contact me (M.J.Darnley@ljmu.ac.uk) or the AAVSO directly.
5) What do we need for a discovery?
To discover the eruption and notify the collaboration, you only need a reliable detection. Ideally, the nova should be clearly detected in more than one exposure. Photometry is useful, but can be done later, because we need to react fast. We are relying on your expertise and judgement about whether a detection is real. If in doubt, follow point 7 below.
Please find attached a finding chart of the nova. The finder chart image is an exceptionally deep exposure taken by the 2m Liverpool Telescope through a Sloan r’ filter, the median seeing of the 21 images combined here was around 1 arcsecond.
6) Discovery notification
If you are successful in discovering the eruption, please notify the collaboration immediately through the mailing list: 12a_Monitoring@googlegroups.com
This should be the first thing you do. CBAT entries or ATels can wait until after this (short) email. Remember that the nova is evolving fast and that we need to be very quick (particularly in triggering the follow-up observations).
Here is a template for the discovery notification. Please attach a discovery image for your stacked data and for at least 2 individual exposures. Ideally, we need a .fits file but if it speeds up the notification then a .jpg screenshot is fine.
If you can immediately provide photometry, then please do so. Otherwise send this email without photometry but start working on the photometry after sending. We will get back to you very quickly.
——————————————–
subject:
——–
M31N 2008-12a – 2023 eruption discovered!
text:
——–
Dear colleagues,
The 2023 eruption has been discovered. Please try to increase your observing cadence to monitor the light curve.
The nova was discovered on <date and time> with a magnitude of <mag> at the <observatory>. Discovery images are attached.
——————————————-
7) If you are not sure
If you are not sure whether you have discovered the nova, please contact the mailing list (12a_Monitoring@googlegroups.com) to request a confirmation. Attach your discovery image(s) and include (preliminary) photometry as well as the location of your observatory.
This scenario is meant for low signal/noise detections at the nova position. If in doubt, please send this email. We’d rather have a few false positives then missing the early stages of an eruption.
——————————————-subject:
———
M31N 2008-12a – possible 2023 detection; requesting confirmation
text:
———
Dear colleagues,
I found a possible detection of the nova on <date and time> with a magnitude of about <mag> at the <observatory>. Discovery images are attached. Please try to confirm this detection.
——————————————-
8) Announcement and publication
The aim is to announce the discovery in an ATel as soon as possible. All photometry will also be included in a comprehensive publication in a refereed journal.
If you discover the eruption, and after notifying the collaboration, you can publish the ATel yourself or send your discovery information to the following people, one of which will publish the ATel as quickly as possible:
If you choose to send the ATel yourself, below is a template that you can use (including some html code in the first paragraph that you can just copy and paste). See also the ATel on the 2017—2021 eruptions:
http://www.astronomerstelegram.org/?read=11116
http://www.astronomerstelegram.org/?read=12177
http://www.astronomerstelegram.org/?read=13269
In reply to: Accommodation at dark sky locations for astronomy(?)
There is accommodation at E-EYE in Spain. It’s not too bad a drive from Seville.
(Disclaimer: I have a jointly run rig hosted by them – but, as a customer, I have stayed there when setting up and found it very comfortable).
In reply to: Elections to BAA Council
The possibility of me joining the Council in order to foster further debate on the matter has been suggested before but I am inherently against “single issue” candidates. One should wish to join the Council in order to further the development of the Association, not just to argue a specific point.
Yes, I would entirely agree that the issue is likely to be low down on anyone’s priority list (including mine!) but I do wonder whether the current system, with its tendency to generate pointless ballots, is in some way responsible for the low voting numbers. Some (such as myself) may not vote at all because they realise that parts of the election are un-necessary anyway and others might be put off by the way that the elections for Council members and Trustees interact, with the additional complication caused by elections whose outcome is a foregone conclusion only adding to the confusion.
And while the issue might be low-priority, surely it is such a simple thing to understand and correct that it should not need a Parliamentary Enquiry to quickly resolve?
In reply to: Elections to BAA Council
Steve, the obvious answer is for you to join the Council, debate the matter, and convince everyone else to vote a different way.
I can see you are annoyed by this, but I suspect it is VERY low down anyone else’s priority list.
James
In reply to: Gift Subscriptions
Hi Patrick,
We don’t have a way to offer gift subscriptions via the online form. However, if you contact the BAA Office at the below link they can probably help you with this.
The problem is the membership is linked to the email address used to join. That means we cannot easily do this as a future dated surprise. As soon as the Office create the membership, the person will receive the welcome email. That is also why they cannot be easily done online, as you create a membership associated with the email address you use to create the account when you join.
https://britastro.org/home/about-us/contact-us
Best wishes,
AndyIn reply to: Variable Star Section Meeting, Sept 2
I was very sorry to miss this meeting but I had a prior engagement that would have been difficult to break. I hope to join you all another time!
In reply to: Variable Star Section Meeting, Sept 2
In reply to: Subscription Renewal Options
Hi Michael,
You can see the prices for the different types of membership at this link:
https://britastro.org/join
The rate that would apply to you would be Ordinary Digital, £32.50.
To alter your membership type you can call (0207 734 4145 10am-4pm Mon-Fri) or email (office@britastro.org) the Office. They can update your renewal membership type, or you can renew to the new type over the phone. If they update your renewal membership type, then when you press the renew button in Sheep you will see your new membership type and price.
Best wishes,
AndyIn reply to: Silly but quick question
Hi Gordon,
There are no silly questions 🙂
For those who have joined in the past few years, your subscription becomes due on the day of the year you joined. For those who joined many years ago, the annual subscription always ran from 1st August to 31st July the next year.
Reminder emails are sent to every member who has provided an email address, about 95% of members. Those who have not given an email address are sent letters. The reminder emails are sent before the renewal is due, then several after payment was due if the member has not renewed.
Gordon, you can login to SheepCRM to see your renewal date. If you are not logged into the BAA website then click:
Login -> Renew Membership
If you are logged into the BAA website then:
Account -> My membership
You use the same password that you use for the BAA website but you have to login separately to SheepCRM.
I won’t give out specific details on the forum, but Gordon’s subscription is not due for a few months.
Best wishes,
Andy (BAA Systems Manager)We are now only two weeks away from the Comet Section meeting at the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich. It looks as if there will be no train strikes that weekend and spaces are still available so, if you haven’t already registered, now is the time to do so! Full details of the event can be found at:
https://britastro.org/event/comet-section-meeting-3
The nearest station to the venue is Cutty Sark which is on the DLR. From here it is only a few minutes’ walk to the museum with entry through the gates on Romney Road. There is also a bus stop right outside the museum for services 129, 177, 188, 286, 386 and N1. The grounds around the museum will open as normal at 7am but the doors will not open until 9am. We need to be out of the museum by 6pm. Please bring your Ticket Tailor booking with you so that we can check you off at the door. If you are early there are plenty of excellent places to buy coffee or breakfast between the station and the park.
The meeting starts with an introduction in the Lecture Theatre at 9:30am followed by a walk up the hill for the special comet-themed planetarium show which will start just after 10am. If you arrive late you can meet us at the planetarium around 09:45 or join when the meeting proper starts back at the Lecture Theatre at 11am. There will be FAS and BAA representatives at the museum entrance, in the lecture theatre and at the planetarium to welcome you.
We have a lunch break scheduled from 12:45 – 13:45. No lunch is provided so bring your own and eat it in beautiful Greenwich Park (sunny weather not guaranteed). You can also get lunch from the cafe at the museum although this is likely to be very busy and we only have an hour. There are plenty of great pubs in the area but getting lunch offsite would be very challenging given the timings. I suggest you don’t try and reserve any pub visits until after the meeting!
All of the talks will be recorded and we will put them online after the event. The meeting schedule is quite tight but there will be an opportunity to ask questions and some time for discussion at the end of the meeting. This is a great opportunity to meet fellow comet enthusiasts face-to-face.
My thanks to Flamsteed Astronomy Society and the NMM for making this meeting possible and to the BAA for support with administration and finances. We currently have over 80 people booked and I’m looking forward to seeing many of you there.
…
There is a simple fix, which is to provide you with two observer codes and logins.
…
This would not be as neat a solution, as it would split your observations into two observers.This approach has worked well for me in a different context.
In the past I have been engaged in significant collaborative projects where credit was due to two or more people. Hence, for example, THL which is short for Team-Hills-Leyland. Kevin Hills took all the images and performed the astrometry. I did the photometry and uploaded the results.
AAVSO does not understand the value of team-work 😉 so all the joint results were uploaded to their database under my name — with the prior agreement of my cow-orkers of course. So, Ian, when your results wend their way over he Atlantic I am pretty sure that all will be attributed to you.
British Astronomical Association
Supporting amateur astronomers since 1890
